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 Post subject: Pumpkin Head ~ Joyce Carol Oates
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:13 pm 
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Well...I certainly wasn't execting events to take this turning! Had I have known it was like this I probably would never have read it.

Katherine, I'm continuing your conversation here so as to not mix up discussions about 'Clara'

I think what Hadley was meaning by 'crossing over time' is that special time between light and day. A time when everything is so still. A time when most people tend to die either out of illness or from sheer thickening of the blood which happens to us all between the hours of 3 & 6am. Apparently it is to do with our heart rate slowing coupled with horizontal positioning which slows the blood flow which in turn thickens the blood. Most elderly people who die of natural old age will also 'pass over ' at this time too. My own father died at 05.30am.
I think that's what she meant by 'passing over time'

I'd have been very suspicious of Anton right from the beginning! Why did he want to visit her so soon after her husbands suggested death? if not for ill gotten gains?
Surely she must have known that?

I know people can always be caught off guard so easily after losing someone so close, but her instincts were de finitely there. WHY didn't they kick in enough for her to trust herself? Most women would have done I'm sure. To turn up with a carved pumpkin on his head in the first instance was a bad omen. I would have demanded he take it off or leave immediately. Better still, I wouldn't have opened the door.

Now having said that, I wonder why the author wrote like this. As a woman it makes sense that she would have had all the natural instincts any woman would, yet she chose to override them for the sake of the story. Why? Does she think women out there are mostly too trusting and wrote this to encourrage us not to be so? or did she write it because she found herself in a silly position where trust became compromised at some point?

I guess we'll ne er know, but I'm not sure I'll follow her other works as a result.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:26 pm 
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There was a line in the story...
Quote:
Now, in her house, Hadley felt a frisson of power over her awkward visitor.......If he kisses me tonight, he will smell of---garbage.


Earlier she said something about her husband abandoning her...often when a spouse, parent, someone close dies, we do feel abandoned, and feel somehow it's our fault they abandoned us. Somehow I think Hadley felt that was all she deserved, someone that would smell of garbage. So unconsciously, she left herself open to someone...she felt was beneath her.
Here's the quote I mean...
Quote:
Her husband had died and abandoned her. Now other men would drop by the house.


If that is the tack Oates takes in her writing in general, I'm not interested in pursuing her writing.


P.S. I wouldn't have read it either if I'd realized, Issi.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:39 pm 
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With the words "Her husband had died and abandoned her. Now other men would drop by the house"

I am immediately envisaging a very angry woman. Angry that he dared to die! Angry that he abandoned her to the realms of other men - opened the flood gates for other men to do as they will.
What I'm not getting, is why the author didn't pcik up on the otherf half of that anger.

Would it not be very normal to turen that anger on to those that did dare to 'call'?
A woman in her situation whom we are led to believe loved her hsuband dearly would not more relish another male attentive anymore than she would a dose of syphillis.

No way would she just open the door and let them in, especially one in a pumpkin head. She would naturally have been terrified.

I wonder if the author has been or is married at all? I even wonder if they've been in any form of stable and long standing relationship of any kind. Maybe the author is quite young? I haven't had the chance to look her up and fond more about her just yet.

To me, I am thinking this author has been abused in someway in her life and has written this story as a means of venting her anger. Trying to channel her thoughts into something more positive and hasn't really thought through the whole process of love lost.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:59 pm 
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Indigo Jo wrote:
With the words "Her husband had died and abandoned her. Now other men would drop by the house"

I am immediately envisaging a very angry woman. Angry that he dared to die! Angry that he abandoned her to the realms of other men - opened the flood gates for other men to do as they will.
What I'm not getting, is why the author didn't pcik up on the otherf half of that anger.

Would it not be very normal to turen that anger on to those that did dare to 'call'?
.


I think that her anger was going to take the path of turning him down when he came onto her sexually. She didn't count on a rape. She was relishing the idea of turning him away. She picked the wrong one to play that game with.

I don't know anything about Oates either, have to google. :)
here.....from Wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_Carol_Oates


Quote:
Oates writes in longhand,[23] working from "8 till 1 every day, then again for two or three hours in the evening."[14] Her subsequent prolificacy has become one of her best-known attributes; The New York Times wrote in 1989 that Oates's "name is synonymous with productivity",[24] and in 2004, The Guardian noted that "Nearly every review of an Oates book, it seems, begins with a list [of the number of books she has published]".[3] Critics have criticized Oates for the level of her output, most notably James Wolcott, who published an article in the September 1982 issue of Harper's Magazine titled "Stop me before I write again: Six hundred more pages by Joyce Carol Oates."[25] In the review, Wolcott wrote that Oates "slop[s] words across a page like a washerwoman flinging soiled water across the cobblestones", [3] and suggested that Oates's productivity was the result of an obsessive-compulsive disorder.[26]


I can believe it!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:01 pm 
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Good grief! Look at this!

http://books.google.com/books?id=AaTSYo ... &ct=result

Ugh, I won't be reading her again.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:55 pm 
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What??!!! 'Rape' A LOVE STORY??? How in heaven's name do you justify those two words mentioned in the same sentence together?

I will NOT be reading any of her material again period. What an eye opener!

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:14 am 
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Downright creepy if you ask me. /shive-r/


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:47 pm 
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I've read it and wondered about something else (in addition to what You bpth already wrote and i agree with): Anton reminds her of foreign students she met in middle school. But her memories of these boys are rather negative, she sees them as pathetic. So why is she attracted to anton? At least at the beginning? Why she considers kissing him? Is it pity? I have to say i didn't like Hadley as a character at all - she was supposed to ask Anton to leave, she was never supposed to invite him. It's hard to believe the story was written by a woman :shrug:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:22 pm 
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Well, after thinking about this author and doing a little research, I'm agreeing with you entirely Durga and are convinced this 'Joyce Carol Oates' is not a woman at all.
The whole thinking behind this story is wrong. Nothing, to me, seems right about it.

I know this sounds way off the mark here, but I'm wondering if the 'person' who wrote this is some sicko who has raped women before in his own time. Convinced himself he 'knows' what women want. 'Knows' what's in their minds and how they work. When in reality he/she knows nothing.

I'm surprised this story and 'other's have been published. Either online, or in print without research being done on the author.
Do publisher's use 'readers' still? I can't believe anyone would read this as a woman and be taken in by it without questioning either at the time or very shortly afterwards as we have here.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:48 pm 
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I guess I was wrong!

Quote:
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Born 16 June 1938 (1938-06-16) (age 70) Lockport, New York

Occupation Novelist, short story writer, playwright, poet, literary critic, professor, editor

Nationality American

Writing period 1963-present

Notable award(s) 1967 O. Henry Award

1973 O. Henry Award
1970 National Book Award

Influences

Charlotte Brontë, Emily Brontë, Lewis Carroll, Charles Dickens, Fyodor Dostoevsky, William Faulkner, Ernest Hemingway, Franz Kafka, D. H. Lawrence, Flannery O'Connor, James Joyce

Influenced

Chris Bohjalian,[1] Jonathan Safran Foer, Shannon Bramer



Early life and education

Oates was born in Lockport, New York to Carolina Oates, a homemaker, and Frederic Oates, a manufacturing worker. She was raised Catholic, but is now an atheist. Oates grew up in the working-class farming community of Millersport, New York, and characterized hers as "a happy, close-knit and unextraordinary family for our time, place and economic status". Her paternal grandmother, Blanche, lived with the family and was "very close" to Joyce. After Blanche's death, Joyce learned that Blanche's father had killed himself and Blanche had subsequently concealed her Jewish heritage; Oates eventually drew on aspects of her grandmother's life in writing the 2007 novel The Gravedigger's Daughter. A brother, Fred Junior, was born in 1943, and a sister, Lynn Ann, who is severely autistic, was born in 1956.

At the beginning of her education, Oates attended the same one-room school her mother attended as a child. She became interested in reading at an early age, and remembers Blanche's gift of Lewis Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland as "the great treasure of my childhood, and the most profound literary influence of my life. This was love at first sight!" In her early teens, she devoured the writing of Charles Dickens, William Faulkner, Fyodor Dostoevsky, Henry David Thoreau, Ernest Hemingway, Charlotte Brontë, and Emily Brontë, whose "influences remain very deep". Oates began writing at the age of 14, when Blanche gave her a typewriter. Oates later transferred to several bigger, suburban schools, and graduated from Williamsville South High School in 1956, where she worked for her high school newspaper.[citation needed] She was the first in her family to complete high school.

Oates won a scholarship to attend Syracuse University, where she joined Phi Mu, a financially draining experience she later regretted. Oates found Syracuse "a very exciting place academically and intellectually", and trained herself by "writing novel after novel and always throwing them out when I completed them." It was not until this point that Oates began reading the work of D. H. Lawrence, Flannery O'Connor, Thomas Mann, and Franz Kafka, though, she noted, "these influences are still quite strong, pervasive." At the age of nineteen, she won the "college short story" contest sponsored by Mademoiselle. Oates graduated Syracuse as valedictorian in 1960, and received her M.A. from the University of Wisconsin-Madison in 1961.

Literary career

Oates published her first novel, With Shuddering Fall (1964), when she was twenty-six years old. In 1966, she published "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?", a short story dedicated to Bob Dylan and written after listening to his song "It's All Over Now, Baby Blue." The story is loosely based on the serial killer Charles Schmid, also known as "The Pied Piper of Tucson". The story was frequently anthologized and was adapted into the 1985 film Smooth Talk, starring Laura Dern. In 2008, Oates said that of all her published work, she is most noted for "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?".

Oates's novel them (1969) received the National Book Award in 1970. Since then she has published an average of two books a year, many of them novels. Frequent topics in her work include rural poverty, sexual abuse, class tensions, desire for power, female childhood and adolescence, and occasionally the supernatural. Violence is a constant in her work, even leading Oates to have written an essay in response to the question, "Why Is Your Writing So Violent?" She is a fan of poet and novelist Sylvia Plath, describing Plath's sole novel The Bell Jar as a "near perfect work of art"; but though Oates has often been compared to Plath, she disavows Plath's romanticism about suicide and among her characters, she favors cunning, hardy survivors, both women and men.[citation needed] Oates' concern with violence and other traditionally masculine topics has won her the respect of such male authors as Norman Mailer. In the early 1980s, Oates began writing stories in the gothic and horror genres; in her foray into these genres, Oates said she was "deeply influenced" by Kafka and felt "a writerly kinship" with James Joyce. She gained much attention for her book-length essay On Boxing (1987).[citation needed]

In 1996, Oates published We Were the Mulvaneys, a novel following the disintegration of an American family, which became a best-seller after being selected by Oprah's Book Club in 2001. In the 1990s and early 2000s, Oates wrote several books, mostly mystery novels, under the pen names "Rosamond Smith" and "Lauren Kelly."

For more than twenty-five years, Oates has been rumored to be a "favorite" to win the Nobel Prize in Literature by oddsmakers and critics. Her papers, held at Syracuse University, include seventeen unpublished short stories and four unpublished or unfinished novellas. Oates has said that most of her early unpublished work was "cheerfully thrown away."

Teaching career

Oates taught in Beaumont, Texas for a year before moving to Detroit in 1962, where she began teaching at the University of Detroit. Influenced by the Vietnam war, the 1967 Detroit race riots, and a job offer, in 1968 Oates moved with her husband to teaching positions at the University of Windsor, Canada. In 1978, she moved to Princeton and began teaching at Princeton University.

In 1995, Princeton undergraduate Jonathan Safran Foer took an introductory writing course with Oates, who took an interest in Foer's writing, telling him that he had "that most important of writerly qualities, energy". Foer later recalled that "she was the first person to ever make me think I should try to write in any sort of serious way. And my life really changed after that." Oates served as the advisor to Foer's senior thesis, an early version of his novel Everything Is Illuminated, which was published to wide acclaim in 1999.

Personal life

While studying at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, Oates met Raymond J. Smith, a fellow graduate student, whom she married in 1961. Smith became a professor of 18th-century literature, and later an editor and publisher. Together the couple founded The Ontario Review, a literary magazine, in 1974, on which Oates served as associate editor. In 1980, Oates and Smith founded Ontario Review Books, an independent publishing house. In 2004, Oates described the partnership as "a marriage of like minds—both my husband and I are so interested in literature and we read the same books; he'll be reading a book and then I'll read it—we trade and we talk about our reading at meal times[...]it's a very collaborative and imaginative marriage". Smith died of complications from pneumonia on February 18, 2008. In April 2008, Oates wrote to an interviewer, "Since my husband's unexpected death, I really have very little energy[...]My marriage—my love for my husband—seems to have come first in my life, rather than my writing. Set beside his death, the future of my writing scarcely interests me at the moment."

Oates is devoted to running, and has written that, "[i]deally, the runner who's a writer is running through the land- and cityscapes of her fiction, like a ghost in a real setting." While running, Oates mentally envisions scenes in her novels and works out structural problems in already-written drafts; she formulated the germ of her novel You Must Remember This (1987) while running, when she "glanced up and saw the ruins of a railroad bridge", which reminded her of "a mythical upstate New York city".

In 1973, Oates began keeping a detailed journal documenting her personal and literary life; it eventually grew to "more than 4,000 single-spaced typewritten pages". In 2008, Oates said she had "moved away from keeping a formal journal" and instead preserves copies of her e-mails. Oates is a member of the Board of Trustees of the John Simon Guggenheim Memorial Foundation. She is also a member of Mensa.

Style and themes


From her first novel With Shuddering Fall in 1964, up to Kindred Passions in 1987, Oates built up a literary corpus that mixes Gothic estrangement with high social observation. Her works contain the typical elements of this type of tale: unconscious forces, seduction, incest, violence, and rape, sometimes to the point of sensationalism. She has written in a variety of genres, eras and landscapes—thus, she has works settled in a Faulkner-like Eden County, an imaginary area of upstate New York; in academia; in the Detroit slums and the Pennsylvania backwoods. But her works are not mere renderings of unusual experiences in far away places, both in space and time: novels such as A Bloodsmoor Romance, The Mysteries of Wintherthurn and Kindred Passions contain strong feminist overtones and use of the Gothic device to explore the ambiguities of gender and the sexual bases of fantasy.

Prolificness

Oates writes in longhand, working from "8 till 1 every day, then again for two or three hours in the evening." Her subsequent prolificacy has become one of her best-known attributes; The New York Times wrote in 1989 that Oates's "name is synonymous with productivity", and in 2004, The Guardian noted that "Nearly every review of an Oates book, it seems, begins with a list [of the number of books she has published]". Critics have criticized Oates for the level of her output, most notably James Wolcott, who published an article in the September 1982 issue of Harper's Magazine titled "Stop me before I write again: Six hundred more pages by Joyce Carol Oates." In the review, Wolcott wrote that Oates "slop[s] words across a page like a washerwoman flinging soiled water across the cobblestones", and suggested that Oates's productivity was the result of an obsessive-compulsive disorder.

In a journal entry written in the 1970s, Oates sarcastically addressed her critics, writing, "So many books! so many! Obviously JCO has a full career behind her, if one chooses to look at it that way; many more titles and she might as well... what?...give up all hopes for a 'reputation'?[...]but I work hard, and long, and as the hours roll by I seem to create more than I anticipate; more, certainly, than the literary world allows for a 'serious' writer. Yet I have more stories to tell, and more novels[...]". In The New York Review of Books in 2007, Michael Dirda suggested that disparaging criticism of Oates "derives from reviewer's angst: How does one judge a new book by Oates when one is not familiar with most of the backlist? Where does one start?"[14]

Several publications have published lists of what they deem the best Joyce Carol Oates books, designed to help introduce readers to the author's daunting oeuvre. In a 2003 article titled "Joyce Carol Oates for dummies", The Rocky Mountain News recommended starting with her early short stories and the novels A Garden of Earthly Delights (1967), them (1969), Wonderland (1971), Black Water (1992), and Blonde (2000).[28] In 2006, The Times listed them, On Boxing (1987), Black Water, and High Lonesome: New & Selected Stories, 1966-2006 (2006) as "The Pick of Joyce Carol Oates".[29] In 2007, Entertainment Weekly listed their Oates "favorites" as Wonderland, Black Water, Blonde, I'll Take You There (2002), and The Falls (2004).[30] In 2003, Oates herself said that she thinks she will be remembered for, and would most want a first-time Oates reader to read, them and Blonde, though she added that "I could as easily have chosen a number of titles.



Select awards and honors

Winner:

* 2007: American Humanist Association's Humanist of the Year
* 2006: Chicago Tribune Literary Prize
* 2005: Prix Femina Etranger - The Falls
* 2001: Oprah's Book Club - We Were the Mulvaneys
* 1996: PEN/Malamud Award for Excellence in the Art of the Short Story
* 1996: Boston Book Review's Fisk Fiction Prize - Zombie
* 1996: Bram Stoker Award for Novel - Zombie
* 1990: Rea Award for the Short Story
* 1990: Heidemann Award for one-act plays - Tone Clusters, co-winner
* 1973: O. Henry Award - "The Dead"
* 1970: National Book Award - them
* 1968: M. L. Rosenthal Award, National Institute of Arts and Letters - A Garden of Earthly Delights
* 1967: O. Henry Award - "In the Region of Ice"
* 1959: Mademoiselle college fiction award - In the Old World

Nominated:

* 2007: National Book Critics Circle Award for Fiction - The Gravedigger's Daughter
* 2007: National Book Critics Circle Award for Autobiography - The Journals of Joyce CarolOates, 1973-1982
* 2006: Orange Prize For Fiction Longlist - Rape: A Love Story
* 2001: Pulitzer Prize - Blonde
* 2000: National Book Award - Blonde
* 1995: Pulitzer Prize - What I Lived For
* 1995: PEN/Faulkner Award - What I Lived For
* 1993: Pulitzer Prize - Black Water
* 1992: National Book Critics Circle Award for Fiction - Black Water
* 1990: National Book Award - Because It Is Bitter, and Because It Is My Heart
* 1972: National Book Award - Wonderland
* 1969: National Book Award - Expensive People
* 1968: National Book Award - A Garden of Earthly Delights


Novels

* With Shuddering Fall (1964)
* A Garden of Earthly Delights (1967)
* Expensive People (1968)
* them (1969)
* Wonderland (1971)
* Do with Me What You Will (1973)
* The Assassins: A Book of Hours (1975)
* Childwold (1976)
* Son of the Morning (1978)
* Cybele (1979)
* Unholy Loves (1979)
* Bellefleur (1980)
* Angel of Light (1981)
* A Bloodsmoor Romance (1982)
* Mysteries of Winterthurn (1984)
* Solstice (1985)
* Marya: A Life (1986)
* You Must Remember This (1987)
* American Appetites (1989)
* Because It Is Bitter, and Because It Is My Heart (1990)
* Foxfire: Confessions of a Girl Gang (1993) (the basis for the 1996 film Foxfire)
* What I Lived For (1994)
* Zombie (1995)
* We Were the Mulvaneys (1996)
* Man Crazy (1997)
* My Heart Laid Bare (1998)
* Broke Heart Blues (1999)
* Blonde (2000)
* Middle Age: A Romance (2001)
* I'll Take You There (2002)
* The Tattooed Girl (2003)
* The Falls (2004)
* Missing Mom (2005)
* Black Girl / White Girl (2006)
* The Gravedigger's Daughter (2007)
* My Sister, My Love (2008)
* A Fair Maiden (Forthcoming)
* The Crosswicks Horror (Forthcoming)
* Little Bird of Heaven (Fall 2009)

Short story collections

* By the North Gate (1963)
* Upon the Sweeping Flood And Other Stories (1966)
* The Wheel of Love And Other Stories (1970)
o How I Contemplated The World From The Detroit House Of Correction
* Marriages and Infidelities (1972)
* The Goddess and Other Women (1974)
* The Hungry Ghosts: Seven Allusive Comedies (1974)
* Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been? (1974)
* The Poisoned Kiss And Other Stories from the Portuguese (1975)
* The Seduction & Other Stories (1975)
* Crossing the Border: Fifteen Tales (1976)
* Night-Side (1977)
* All the Good People I've Left Behind (1979)
* A Sentimental Education: Stories (1980)
* Last Days: Stories (1984)
* Wild Saturday (1984)
* Raven's Wing: Stories (1986)
* The Assignation: Stories (1989)
* Oates In Exile (1990)
* Heat And Other Stories (1991)
* Where Is Here? (1992)
* Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?: Selected Early Stories (1993)
* Haunted: Tales of the Grotesque (1994)
* Demon and other tales (1996)
* Will You Always Love Me? And Other Stories (1996)
* The Collector of Hearts: New Tales of the Grotesque (1998)
* Faithless: Tales of Transgression (2001)
* I Am No One You Know: Stories (2004)
* The Female of the Species: Tales of Mystery and Suspense (2006)
* High Lonesome: New & Selected Stories, 1966-2006 (2006)
* The Museum of Dr. Moses: Tales of Mystery and Suspense (2007)
* Wild Nights! (2008)
* Life After High School
* Dear Husband, (2009)

Novels as "Rosamond Smith"

* Lives of the Twins (1987) (U.K. title: Kindred Passions)
* Soul/Mate (1989)
* Nemesis (1990)
* Snake Eyes (1992)
* You Can't Catch Me (1995)
* Double Delight (1997)
* Starr Bright Will Be With you Soon (1999)
* The Barrens (2001)



Novels as "Lauren Kelly"

* Take Me, Take Me With You (2003)
* The Stolen Heart (2005)
* Blood Mask (2006)

Novellas

* The Triumph of the Spider Monkey (1976)
* I Lock My Door Upon Myself (1990)
* The Rise of Life on Earth (1991)
* Black Water (1992)
* First Love: A Gothic Tale (1996)
* Beasts (2002)
* Rape: A Love Story (2003)
* The Corn Maiden : A Love Story (2005)

Drama

* Miracle Play (1974)
* Three Plays (1980)
* In Darkest America (1991)
* I Stand Before You Naked (1991)
* Twelve Plays (1991) (including Black)
* The Perfectionist and Other Plays (1995)
* New Plays (1998)
* Dr. Magic: Six One Act Plays (2004)

Essays and criticism

* The Edge of Impossibility: Tragic Forms in Literature (1972)
* The Hostile Sun: The Poetry of D.H. Lawrence (1974)
* New Heaven, New Earth: The Visionary Experience in Literature (1974)
* Contraries: Essays (1981)
* The Profane Art: Essays & Reviews (1983)
* On Boxing (1987)
* (Woman) Writer: Occasions and Opportunities (1988)
* George Bellows: American Artist (1995)
* "They Just Went Away" 1995
* Where I've Been, And Where I'm Going: Essays, Reviews, and Prose (1999)
* The Faith of A Writer: Life, Craft, Art (2003)
* Uncensored: Views & (Re)views (2005)

Poetry

* Women In Love and Other Poems (1968)
* Anonymous Sins & Other Poems (1969)
* Love and Its Derangements (1970)
* Angel Fire (1973)
* The Fabulous Beasts (1975)
* Women Whose Lives Are Food, Men Whose Lives Are Money (1978)
* Invisible Woman: New and Selected Poems, 1970-1982 (1982)
* The Time Traveler (1989)
* Tenderness (1996)
* The Coming Storm (Forthcoming)

Young adult fiction

* Big Mouth & Ugly Girl (2002)
* Small Avalanches and Other Stories (2003)
* Freaky Green Eyes (2003)
* Sexy (2005)
* After the Wreck, I Picked Myself Up, Spread My Wings, and Flew Away (2006)

Children's fiction

* Come Meet Muffin! (1998)
* Where Is Little Reynard? (2003)




http://snipurl.com/f0cio


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:55 pm 
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It still doesn't change the way I view her style of writing.

I'll tell you one thing though. The revellation that she is orignally Dutch says a lot!!
The Dutch people I have had expereinces with in the past have all been rather direct and arrogant people. The men literally control their women in a way that can only ever really be tolerated by their women. No other woman would tolerate it that's for sure! ( I wouldn't and that's why one particular Dutchman gave me a hell's life :roll: )
I think the women can be and are, given the chance highly intellectual and very warm beautiful people but are still a little harsh in nature on the outside. I guess they've had to be really, it's inbred in them and they are who they are because of what society there tells them they have to be.

Her being Dutch really does explain the story and why Hadley was so 'resigned' to Anton. I'd shoot the Ba***rd myself!! - if I were Hadley ;) :D

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God, The Universe, Consciousness, Love - whatever name it goes under - We all come from it, we are all connected to it, and in the end we all return to it. -annon.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:09 pm 
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Well! That's certainly interesting. I didn't think anything of her being Dutch, didn't know anything about how they tended to think. It does explain a lot.

I'm with you Issi, he'd at the least get a good kick in the nether regions. and out the door, well, truth be told, he'd not have gotten in the door to begin with!!

You'd think though, living in this country, and seeing how women are here, some of that would have rubbed off on her thinking! :eek:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:05 am 
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Did you notice how she names James Joyce as one of her major influencers? Mmmh........:roll:

I like James Joyce, and don't much like the idea of her works being linked to his somehow.

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God, The Universe, Consciousness, Love - whatever name it goes under - We all come from it, we are all connected to it, and in the end we all return to it. -annon.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:16 pm 
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The only Joyce books I've even partially were his short stories...The Dubliners, and I bogged down about two-thirds of the way through. Some were quite good, but some were beyond boring to me. Then Portrait of the Artist As A Young Man...stopped by me about a third of the way in...I skimmed the rest, but it just didn't hold my attention.

It's the same with Beckett for me, I just can't get into most of his works either.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:32 am 
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I donm't mind Joyce's works - I'm not a lover of them either, but I still don't like the thought of his works being tainted with the title of 'influncer' of her dirty deeds. If I were Mr. Joyce I'd ask for my name to be removed! I would not want the thought that my works had led to hers in anyway.

I suppose some women find the idea of rape worth embellishing on, but most do not and thank goodness for it. Perpetrators do not nbeed glorification in any sense of the matter and to me, writing in Oates manner does just that.

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God, The Universe, Consciousness, Love - whatever name it goes under - We all come from it, we are all connected to it, and in the end we all return to it. -annon.


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